Flutterwave, Clara & a sprinkle of fintech

[00:00:07] Speaker A: Hey, guys. Welcome to the Tech Point Africa podcast. My name is Muiwa. [00:00:10] Speaker B: My name is Oluwani Femi. [00:00:12] Speaker C: I'm Emmanuel. [00:00:13] Speaker D: And I'm Jim Godwin. [00:00:15] Speaker A: So I think the most exciting news this week for most. I don't know about other people, but Elon Musk acquiring a very 9%, 9.2% stake in Switzerland. And apparently he has a boat seat. [00:00:32] Speaker C: Yep. [00:00:33] Speaker D: Yep. [00:00:34] Speaker C: He's now a guy. [00:00:36] Speaker B: Yes. I think he's getting what he wants. [00:00:39] Speaker A: It's good to have money. [00:00:40] Speaker D: Yes. [00:00:40] Speaker B: Very good for one. Yes. Being the richest man in the world is something. Should be a perk. And it seems like he wants something done. And I think. [00:00:52] Speaker A: I'm still wondering how you got it, because it's not just about having the money, being able to be on the board. Yeah. Even buy a stake in the company. Must have done some silent underground. [00:01:03] Speaker B: The is individual stakeholder. Many are big companies, so it's literally competed. [00:01:13] Speaker A: So he's going to make some changes or what? [00:01:15] Speaker B: Yes, he wants to make changes about free speech and democracy and everything. I don't know. [00:01:23] Speaker D: I wonder how easy it's going to be to do that. [00:01:26] Speaker C: One of the things he first tweeted was, who wants an edit button? [00:01:30] Speaker A: That's never happened. Did the Twitter get an edit? Putin. That's the day he loses his appear. Yeah. [00:01:40] Speaker D: Because you can't edit your tweet at night. And then what you said yesterday is no longer what you said. [00:01:44] Speaker A: Yeah. Especially when you were already shooting. [00:01:46] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:01:46] Speaker A: When people ratio, you just change what you said. [00:01:49] Speaker B: The least you can do is delete it. And you bet people have taken quick screenshots. [00:01:55] Speaker D: Yeah. [00:01:55] Speaker C: So someone was recommending that. Okay. There could be a way they could, uh. When you edit the tweets to show that it has been edited and you can see the Facebook. [00:02:07] Speaker A: I don't know if you guys remember when Facebook. Because Facebook didn't used to have the edit option. [00:02:11] Speaker C: Okay. [00:02:12] Speaker A: I don't remember the exact year, but I've been on Facebook long enough. [00:02:15] Speaker B: Maybe around 2017. 2016. [00:02:17] Speaker A: No, I think it's earlier than that. [00:02:19] Speaker B: Earlier. [00:02:19] Speaker A: I think it's earlier. So, yeah, they added the option, like, where you can see. You can see the edit. [00:02:25] Speaker B: Edit history. Yes. You see what was changed. [00:02:27] Speaker A: But then who has time for that on Twitter? Twitter is. Ben. [00:02:30] Speaker B: Ben, let's drag this person. Let's get on this. Where is the next violence? [00:02:34] Speaker A: Exactly? Speaking of violence and dragon, I mean, Flutterwave was. GB of Flutterwave was dragged this week. [00:02:42] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:02:42] Speaker A: Um, a former employee, Clara. She's not nigerian. I don't think she's kenyan. Yeah. Accused GBCU of Flutterwave of bullying. Bullying. Not paying dues. Yeah, she called it dues and negligence. Sued them for negligence, you know, and emotional damage. Emotional damage. Because she was apparently involved in some fraud case because her number. [00:03:13] Speaker C: The whole details behind it still looks sketchy. [00:03:16] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, she mentioned. So she mentioned pay bill, that our number was in a PayBl account that was used to. Apparently, there's an article on the kenyan website called Nairobi News. Nairobi in news where it details how she sued the company. This was from last 2020. So she sued the company. Apparently someone organized a sex party with the company's. I was first confused when they said someone was organizing sex party with the company's account or something, and then a number was on that account as a contact person and. But she's no longer. She was no longer with the company and then she was involved in the fruit case. But I'm just wondering, like, why is flutterwave organizing sex parties? Like, it makes no sense to me. Flutterwave is the payment processor. Right. [00:04:06] Speaker B: So is it that nobody else could have used Flutterwave's account for that except an insider person? [00:04:15] Speaker A: I'm trying. Okay, so, first of all. So it's a pay bill is a Safaricom pay bill account, apparently, yeah. And the. The pay bill account is just simply. It's more like a. [00:04:25] Speaker C: It's like a merchant platform. [00:04:26] Speaker A: A merchant platform. [00:04:29] Speaker C: So stores, very, very small stores even have it. You don't see the number there. Once you finish buying what you want to buy, you pay. [00:04:35] Speaker A: You pay. So the question is, why does Splutterwave have a paybill account? [00:04:40] Speaker C: So I guess mobile money works differently to standard payments that we do here in Nigeria, for instance. And M Pesa is like, the chief payments, the payments king in Kenya. So maybe flutterwave needed to tap that infrastructure, but it's still not clear. Maybe they just needed that to get a foothold in the country. [00:05:03] Speaker A: Then, at that time. At that time, that was 2018, right? [00:05:06] Speaker C: Yes. [00:05:06] Speaker A: So. So maybe because they wanted to expand into Kenya and they just needed a kenyan individual and she happened to be in their employer, maybe that's what she was even employed for, because I think she's. She was head of. What's it called, was her role. Again. [00:05:21] Speaker B: End of implementation. [00:05:22] Speaker A: Implementation of Africa. Yeah, rest of Africa. So they used our contact details as the contact person, because I was looking at the form for the KYC. Form for pay bill for limited liability companies. You need a kenyan director and a few other things, which I feel. Yeah. Id, passport, and all of that. But even with individual accounts and rental business and sole proprietorship, you need a Kenya contact. So maybe they used her details. And according to her, in the article where she. The medium article, she said when she left the company, she asked that her contacts be removed. Yeah, but they refused to remove because they had no. Found someone to replace her. And that's why she was involved in the whole thing. [00:06:08] Speaker C: But that medium article, when she sent them email, GB responded that they've actually removed it. [00:06:14] Speaker B: But they haven't. [00:06:15] Speaker A: No, no. He apologized for the oversight and said. [00:06:19] Speaker C: They would remove it. Oh, okay. [00:06:22] Speaker A: So what she sued them for now is what is not clear. [00:06:24] Speaker B: Because she said, I think it was when our mom was first harassed. That was when she reached out. [00:06:30] Speaker A: Okay. [00:06:31] Speaker B: And they said they will remove it. [00:06:33] Speaker A: But I mean, $900,000. So she didn't mention the amount in them in the medium article. But according to another interview by the big tech, that's what it's called, I believe a newsletter that I interviewed. Very unrelated story, but just happened to be released the same week about how floataway became a unicorn. He said one of the ex employees, probably this is the article that triggered her. [00:06:56] Speaker B: Yes, yes. She mentioned it like that. They have gone to tell her story in a different light and she's coming out to tell people what the writing is. And she's open to. She's open to speak. [00:07:11] Speaker A: Exactly. [00:07:12] Speaker B: But in a very interesting change of events, she said she can't speak because. [00:07:21] Speaker D: I can't really speak for your ecosystem. [00:07:23] Speaker B: Because of the ecosystem. That she would not. [00:07:26] Speaker A: She put the ecosystem in ecosystem. [00:07:28] Speaker B: The ecosystem. In air quotes, like, so the ecosystem colder. [00:07:32] Speaker A: Who is this ecosystem? [00:07:34] Speaker B: I'm wondering, like, who is this representative of the ecosystem? [00:07:38] Speaker C: Ecosystem. [00:07:41] Speaker B: Leaves us wondering how big of a deal this is. [00:07:45] Speaker C: Yeah, the sentence feels very loaded. Like, yeah, what? Who is the ecosystem? [00:07:51] Speaker A: Why did they have to call up personally and tell her to stop talking? I mean, she already took them to court. She has her lawyers, and she says she's willing to say she was willing, but now she's saying she's not allowed. Did you say she says she's not allowed? [00:08:06] Speaker C: Let me read this verbatim. [00:08:08] Speaker A: Right? [00:08:08] Speaker C: Wanjiku told TechCrunch, I am no longer allowed to speak on this for the. [00:08:14] Speaker B: Ecosystem, quote and unquote, the ecosystem. [00:08:19] Speaker A: That's very loaded. [00:08:20] Speaker B: It is. So this is. So my guess would be, would it be a guess or what it's like if she speaks and this turns out to be like a huge scandal on the brand flutterwave or on the brand GB. Right. How much effect would it have on the nigerian tech ecosystem? [00:08:44] Speaker A: So maybe that's why she was told not to talk. So are you saying that maybe someone called her on behalf of the ecosystem? I beg them not to destroy the ecosystem. [00:08:53] Speaker B: Exactly. That was my thought. [00:08:55] Speaker A: This still nascent ecosystem. [00:08:57] Speaker D: There's something that's very funny in that statement. She didn't just say, I can no longer speak. She said, I am no longer allowed. [00:09:04] Speaker A: Allowed. [00:09:05] Speaker B: So if your lawyer advised you not to speak, you'll be able to say it's a lawyer that told you not to speak. But this is not sounding like your lawyer advised you not to speak. [00:09:14] Speaker A: He said, ecosystem. [00:09:15] Speaker D: So who is not allowing you to speak? [00:09:20] Speaker A: System. [00:09:20] Speaker D: So this might not be very popular, but just looks like she's tired of the whole circus and she just wants it to end. So she's like, okay, fine, let's just. [00:09:30] Speaker B: Get this over with. [00:09:31] Speaker A: Yeah. But according to her, even, um, GP corroborated this initiative. She has appealed, so. Because apparently she sued for 900,000. It's not clear what she sued for initially. Very. Because according to her, she was supposed to be paid some expenses, but she was later paid, I guess, after involving lawyers. But then it seems that this 900,000 she sued them for was for the emotional damage. And then it cuts. We don't know whether it's in Kenya or in Nigeria. It's most likely in Kenya. Right. We tried to search for court records, but we found nothing. Anyway, awarded her $2,500 in damage. So what did the judge think? Why did you think 2500 was what she was due, not 900,000 that she sued for? [00:10:14] Speaker C: So, yeah, but to be clear, the suing was that phone number that was left in that Mpesa account. [00:10:20] Speaker A: Yes. [00:10:21] Speaker C: And the circumstances around it. According to her, detectives came to meet her mom, said, questioning her mom. My mom was scared that the phone number or the account or whatever has been using. Fraud incident. Then she now gave some kind of context that if it was used to fund a terrorism attack, she would have disappeared. [00:10:41] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:10:42] Speaker C: Without notice. So I think it's that emotional trauma she was trying to gain, sue for. So. But, yeah, I don't know why the judge is like, it's too big. [00:10:55] Speaker D: Yes. [00:10:55] Speaker A: Yeah, I wouldn't dismiss. I mean, she's one that must have failed the. I can imagine having a mother call. [00:11:00] Speaker B: Out and she being arrested or someone. [00:11:04] Speaker A: And all of that. Exactly. But at the same time, it's still. Still confusing. Why is there. Why is there a pay bill account which is for merchants, regular merchants, to collect payments. Why does flutter have one that is still operating? So I'm assuming. Okay, maybe when they got into Kenya in 2018 or whenever they expanded, that was just a way to get a foothold where they figured out how to now institutionalize themselves in the kenyan space. Why were they still operating such an account as a premium processor? And why. Who organized this part? Is it because, obviously, Paybl accounts belongs to Flutterwave? It's not like. It's like. It's not like maybe Flutterwave has a license to now issue pay bill accounts? No, it's paybl account belonging to Flutterwave. So someone allegedly organizes sex party. Who organizes sex parties? [00:12:00] Speaker B: A lot of questions. [00:12:03] Speaker A: And then fraudulent people. [00:12:05] Speaker B: Right. [00:12:06] Speaker A: Using flutterwaves paybill accounts. So I'm very careful about calling it an allegation because I don't know. Well, it's not an allegation, to be honest, because GB seems to confirmed that there was such a case be. [00:12:21] Speaker C: Yep. [00:12:21] Speaker A: Right. And he said, an ex employee who led one of our country expansions sued us for negligence and emotional trauma for not removing their name as the contact person in the country. Okay. That's a very general statement. So he didn't say specifically, but in a medium article, she says it was a Paybl account. [00:12:38] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:12:40] Speaker A: That was used to organize a sex party that defaulted. People like. [00:12:44] Speaker B: There are a lot of. I don't. I just hope. I just hope going forward, right, people have been encouraged to speak out, right. In the spirit of horrible bosses, right. People are expected. Encouraged to speak out and know, but we just need details. Right? Details to. To support whatever it is you went through to be able to know who should be held accountable. Right. This story has a lot of gaps, even though there are a lot of. There are some correlations between GB's story, GB's response, flutterweight response, and Clara's allegations. Right. So I just hoping that people get to say the old story, right. They should speak their truth, as we said, it should say the old story. [00:13:33] Speaker C: Yeah. I'm actually not surprised that Flutter will still run in that account because I feel Mpesa is inevitable payments when it comes to Kenya. [00:13:41] Speaker A: And Safaricom is like the king. Right? [00:13:43] Speaker C: Yeah. So, yeah, I think. Whatever. I think there's a transaction limit for Mpesaf most of the time, so maybe the payment processors are trying to come into the market to take advantage. But I don't think there's enough reason for any major payments company to take Kenya by the bull. By the horn, rather. So if you are coming into Kenya, you should actually understand. Okay, maybe we latch onto these guys first since they already have the infrastructure and keep on building and building and building because all it takes is for investors to just switch one future and your entire market. [00:14:20] Speaker A: Exactly. [00:14:21] Speaker C: So, yeah, but like you said, there are a lot of things to actually unpack here. And I'm still making some inquiries about how this payb works. Why a payments processor actually needs exactly paybill accounts. [00:14:35] Speaker A: We need to get to the bottom of that. I have theories, but I would rather know something that I come back like, it still confuses me. Why was there. Why is Flotaweave. Why is a sex party, a fake sex party being organized via flotaweed's mobile money account? Like, makes no sense. Single mother, you say something? [00:14:55] Speaker D: Nah, you're very surprising. Like, there are just too many holes in there is not connected. [00:15:03] Speaker A: Although I will be careful to highlight that. Flutterwave does not confirm or address the sex parties side of things. Just says, even in the statement to tech crunch, it says, we confirmed that at the point of resignation, all money is due to our former employee at the time were promptly disposed, and we have recourse to confirm this. We, however, sincerely regret the circumstances that led to the dispute and wish it had been addressed in a more timely manner. [00:15:36] Speaker B: That's all they say, bad blood, bad blood. [00:15:40] Speaker A: And then. Oh, here's an interesting part. For the ecosystem theorists, this is the last sentence in the statement. In no way did we take this lightly. We want the ecosystem to have a health and productive. A healthy and productive work culture, and we are committed to doing our parts. And declares I'm not allowed to speak for. For the ecosystem. Okay, is it for the ecosystem or because of the ecosystem? [00:16:13] Speaker C: For the ecosystem. [00:16:15] Speaker B: For the Buddha ecosystem. For the health. [00:16:18] Speaker C: So, yeah, this is where people can start bashing us for not understanding English. For the ecosystem. [00:16:29] Speaker A: I am no longer allowed to speak on this. [00:16:32] Speaker B: For the ecosystem. [00:16:34] Speaker D: For the good of the ecosystem. [00:16:36] Speaker A: Exactly. She's not. She can't speak for the ecosystem. [00:16:43] Speaker B: She's speaking for herself. So. [00:16:45] Speaker C: So on behalf of the ecosystem, how. [00:16:48] Speaker B: It can't be on behalf. She's not speaking on behalf. What she suggested was or what she volunteered. What she said she was going to volunteer for is to speak her truth. Speak what is going on for herself. So what? I'm taking that context as is speaking, I will not be able to speak just for peace, to reign in the ecosystem. [00:17:07] Speaker A: And the truth is, then, that's not well worded thing. [00:17:11] Speaker C: But she put it in quotes for. [00:17:14] Speaker A: The ecosystem, she's not even part of what is the ecosystem because she's kenyan. Is it the nigerian or african? [00:17:22] Speaker C: It could be the african ecosystem, but the question is, if she speaks and this thing runs deeper than we are looking at right now. [00:17:30] Speaker B: She's running currently, you know. Yeah. [00:17:32] Speaker A: She has a startup, fintech API. [00:17:36] Speaker C: So it looks more like what mono and one pipe and one pipe do. [00:17:40] Speaker B: And, you know, we can't remove Nigeria from the market. [00:17:43] Speaker A: Yeah, apparently Nigeria, she's Kenya, but it's, like, in Nigerian. Major market seems to be nigerian. [00:17:48] Speaker C: Okay. [00:17:49] Speaker A: And, oh, of course, by the way, we forgot to say that she alleged that, um, GB bad mounted her. Right. [00:17:57] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:17:58] Speaker A: Supporters. The opportunity to get a job. And they are also. Although she says they had no, um, knowledge of this. But there are also sexual harassments, claims, allegations and whatnot. [00:18:10] Speaker B: Is a lot. So. [00:18:11] Speaker A: Yeah, there's so much. [00:18:12] Speaker C: Yeah. If it turns out that, okay, this is deeper than it is, then this statement will make a lot of sense, because flutterwave is now so big, they require a number of companies that unicorn GP is on almost everybody's captive captive. [00:18:26] Speaker A: Exactly. [00:18:26] Speaker C: So whoever the ecosystem is probably has gb on his captive. [00:18:34] Speaker A: So, the way you put it. Now I am no longer allowed to speak on this. [00:18:40] Speaker B: We are becoming conspiracy theorists. [00:18:43] Speaker D: I think that statement is telling. It's telling because. Okay, maybe she's. Either someone has reached out to her, or she's now evaluating her options. Okay, I just started a company recently. [00:18:55] Speaker A: Exactly. So I'm part of the ecosystem. [00:18:57] Speaker D: Part of the ecosystem. [00:18:59] Speaker C: So she's picking her battles. [00:19:00] Speaker D: Exactly. I mean, if. If it's just a few dollars or a few hundreds or thousands of dollars that was not paid compared to the bigger picture of people, I don't know. So. Except the tech ecosystem is like secondary school, where you couldn't speak or say something about a classmate or something like that, you know, not to be seen as a rat or something, so. Except that. [00:19:26] Speaker B: And they are cliques. [00:19:27] Speaker D: Yeah. [00:19:27] Speaker B: Except they are an outcast. [00:19:29] Speaker D: Yeah. [00:19:30] Speaker A: Yeah. So maybe she has potential investors she's speaking with, and that could be, too. [00:19:37] Speaker C: You don't want to be on the. [00:19:39] Speaker B: On the bad side. [00:19:40] Speaker C: On the bad side of. [00:19:41] Speaker B: Oh, my God. So what is it with gatekeeping? Right. There. There are some. There are some places or settings that you can't do without clicks. Right. And it's. It's very, very hard for you to speak out in those spaces, right? Because who wants to hold who responsible, right? Eventually it might be the scapegoat. [00:20:04] Speaker D: So I'm getting that sense, considering she's a founder. I mean, if you want to raise money, raising money is mainly about who you know. [00:20:13] Speaker A: Exactly. [00:20:14] Speaker D: Or to a large extent about who you know. [00:20:17] Speaker B: Right. [00:20:17] Speaker D: So if. And considering the, like, let's say the stage at, at which the ecosystem is. It's not like so mature where you can say, okay, fine, dwell with all of you. Yeah, dwell with all of you myself. Exactly. It's like, it's still at the very nascent stage where you can't just do that. [00:20:34] Speaker B: Everybody's connected. [00:20:35] Speaker D: Everybody's connected. I mean, if you, if you defraud on investor, just know that every other person is going to find out. It's so. It's so smooth. [00:20:46] Speaker B: Communicate. [00:20:47] Speaker D: Yeah. So. Except you're going to look for a way to get your capital from somewhere else or whatever. Yeah. It's going to be probably one of the reasons. Yeah, yeah. [00:20:57] Speaker A: I wish I would. Again, it's also possible she had legal advice. I mean, she already had the lawyers. So maybe she just go emotional again because of the interview. [00:21:04] Speaker B: Right. [00:21:05] Speaker A: And decided to share. And then she realized, okay, maybe it's not worth it. It's not worth it. So. [00:21:11] Speaker C: Okay. [00:21:11] Speaker A: I mean, that's why we're being careful about jumping on. There's just too many gaps. Too many. Yeah. So that's the issue. It's really unclear. I'm starting to feel bummed out. Let's move on to our understanding. But what we'll do is, yeah, we'll definitely try and follow up on this and. Yeah. See where it leads us. All right, so let's zoom back. This is Kenya. Let's zoom back. Zoom in. Back is out. Back into Nigeria. One of the major telcos MTN. Nigeria. Right. [00:21:47] Speaker C: King MTN. [00:21:48] Speaker A: There's some big news about them. Is it big news? [00:21:50] Speaker C: Yeah. Is it big news or more telling news? It's actually telling. Right. Over the weekend, they said they are responsible for over 13% of taxes in Nigeria. In Nigeria, Nigeria's tax reform. [00:22:08] Speaker A: They reviewed that. Unprovoked. [00:22:09] Speaker C: Unprovoked. So FRS actually confirmed it. They were celebrating the biggest companies that are paying tax. Right. [00:22:19] Speaker B: Yay. [00:22:19] Speaker C: Oh. ICTA celebrating some of the biggest companies paying tax. We had likes of shell among them. And M Ten was confirmed as like the biggest tax compliant company. Right. [00:22:30] Speaker B: And they owed at some points. [00:22:33] Speaker C: Yeah. They were owing about $2 billion in taxes. [00:22:36] Speaker A: Yeah, I remember that was last year. [00:22:38] Speaker C: Yes. [00:22:38] Speaker A: They claimed they were no owing. There was some kind of mix up. [00:22:41] Speaker C: Yeah, mix up. So I think that's why they're actually coming out with this now to say, oh, okay. It's not only that we are no longer o we're actually the biggest taxpayers. So we looked at numbers that they shared and the numbers if IR's shared frs did not confirm the exact percentage that MTM paid. But they said he collected 6.4 trillion naira in 2021 in taxes. [00:23:05] Speaker A: Okay. [00:23:06] Speaker C: MTN paid them 618.7 billion naira in taxes. So when you even do the numbers, you're working with around 10%. So. But even though it's slightly smaller, it's still telling that one company is collecting 10%. [00:23:26] Speaker A: What questions are that raising you collecting or contributing? [00:23:30] Speaker C: Contributing 10% to Nigeria's tax revenue is raising a lot of. Okay, so do Nigerians pay tax? Where are the taxes going? How many companies are paying tax? [00:23:41] Speaker A: Yeah, this explains why they seem to always target, like, big companies. [00:23:46] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:23:47] Speaker A: Like trying to drain them. [00:23:49] Speaker B: But I summit on a report in 2021 by, I think the cable that says 98 of, um, of businesses in the informal sector pay in Nigeria. They actually pay taxes. But here it is. It's not, it's not the states. [00:24:10] Speaker D: Yeah. [00:24:10] Speaker A: To the local government. Yeah. [00:24:12] Speaker B: We don't know where non state actors, that's what they call agarus. Exactly. Local government. And, and, oh, but there's this, I don't know, maybe they flawed, what's the word? A flawed understanding of the informal sector that they are. They make lesser money. [00:24:37] Speaker A: Oh, they make a lot of money. [00:24:38] Speaker B: Yeah. That is what. So there is like, it tends to be more ignored than the focus is. No more. It's not much on them as it is on organized settings, on organized companies. Right. [00:24:51] Speaker A: I think it's because it's harder for them to collect taxes from this. They need to figure out how to structure them. Is that the. Right. [00:25:00] Speaker D: A lot of these companies don't even have like proper bookkeeping practices. So I guess if I don't know how much you're making, how do I tax you properly? [00:25:10] Speaker C: Some of them are not even registered. [00:25:12] Speaker D: Exactly. So how do you tax someone who is not in your database and who doesn't have proper records? Whereas an MTN declares profits at the end of the year. So at least I know how much you're making. So it's easier for me to tax you. But even at that, we see there's. [00:25:27] Speaker B: Personal income tax, right? [00:25:29] Speaker D: Yes. [00:25:29] Speaker A: Yeah. That one is charged on personal income. There's company income, which is charged on profits. [00:25:35] Speaker B: On profits, yeah. So a company is invariably taxed twice, kind of because you are paying salary and your worker will be taxed. And the company is taxed too. [00:25:48] Speaker A: It's on the worker because the company just says, okay, we're paying the salary and then we deduct, outsource the tax. So, yeah, in a way. Yeah, in a way, yeah, I get what you're saying. They pay it on behalf of the employees. [00:26:01] Speaker B: Okay. [00:26:01] Speaker A: But it's still part of, like, the total budget of salary that they have. [00:26:05] Speaker C: Okay. [00:26:06] Speaker A: There's company contacts and there's very. And withholding tax and many other taxes. [00:26:11] Speaker B: We see doesn't leave out the fact that Nigerians might not have data to confirm it. But Nigerians pay tax. [00:26:19] Speaker D: So we do pay tax. [00:26:20] Speaker B: We do pay tax one way or the other. We are paying tax. [00:26:24] Speaker C: So. But are we using the itest to gauge this? Right, because the number says Nigeria only gets 6% of tax revenue is what is contributed to GDP yearly. But the FRS chairman was saying that, okay, this number does not account for what is being collected at the grassroots level, at the local government, at the state level. So probably a lot of the tax Nigerians is collecting does not get to the federal government. [00:26:48] Speaker B: It's not. Probably. It doesn't. [00:26:50] Speaker C: Okay. [00:26:52] Speaker B: It doesn't. It doesn't. Because this is like a. Is a problem for. For the Nigeria. I think there's a national tax policy that is still giving the government headache. So what they are falling back on is voluntary tax payments because there's no how you can structure the informal sector. Yeah. [00:27:17] Speaker D: You can't. So you can't. Maybe you can't do it. [00:27:21] Speaker B: But market women association. [00:27:25] Speaker D: Seriously, it may no longer be maybe a percentage of their income or something. It could just be. Okay. Based figure. So now this is like personal experience and all. Um, when I was in school, I can't remember how we got into a conversation with a market woman and we were like, okay, so our ideas are then was that these guys don't pay any tax or anything. So the woman told us that for her to sell every day, she has to pay about 5000 error every day for her to sell. And she was complaining that she was selling. She almost did. She doesn't even make as much as 5000 error. So that basically she's been over taxed. So I think we around when they were coming to take. To ask for that axe, that was how we got into that conversation. So that. That's just one. Now, another one is when I was living in Aba. So there's this like a motor park or something like that. It was originally a filling station, but apparently the man wasn't getting so much business, but he still has connect. So somehow, somehow revenue from that park was going to demand. Wow, that's revenue that should be going to the government, which was going to demand. And unofficial reports by the driver said that on a very good day, the man makes at least 200,000 naira from. From whatever is collected on that place a day. [00:28:44] Speaker A: Wow. 100% profit. [00:28:47] Speaker D: So this is just him saying, okay, fine, this. This is like my property. Oya. Use it, use it. And then every day I'm making 200,000. So that's not just the only one. So Aria international market is like one of the largest markets in Africa. And the. The revenue that's collected for people who use a toilet is massive. But it's one person who collects it. [00:29:09] Speaker B: Wow. [00:29:11] Speaker D: People know it on the streets, people know who the person is, but it's obvious that it's going to private pockets, obviously on a normal day. [00:29:19] Speaker B: That's the issue with it is either there is tax evasion or there is remittance issues, misappropriation. So the thing is, by the time you want to get it structured and you want to be collecting tax legally, these same people that know the way they have been extorted in a way, right, will not want to pay because one, some people somewhere are still going to collect their own share. And two, you are not even seeing what they are using taxpayer money to do. So it will be very, very difficult for you to get them to pay legally. These people that use force to collect. [00:29:59] Speaker D: A serious problem because you find people that pay more than three times. Three times is actually small. Most states have like seven to ten agencies collecting different levies for people. I know that. I think what, seven up had to leave a bar for a while and apple was like, they moved to Enugu. And the way their business works, they need water. Enugu doesn't have water. You have to move to a place that doesn't have water. And at some point it turned out that it wasn't a very smart decision for them. But the state lost one of the largest employers of labor in the end. They didn't come back to Aba. I think they moved to Ghana or something, but they moved out of the region entirely. [00:30:43] Speaker A: Oh, my goodness. [00:30:44] Speaker C: Aziz. Government chases it, chase businesses out and just. It's so crazy. But Soludo is actually proposing. [00:30:55] Speaker B: Please let me laugh before you. [00:30:59] Speaker C: Collect taxes digitally. [00:31:01] Speaker A: So in an umbrella state. [00:31:04] Speaker C: Yeah, for the informal sector, Aga has. [00:31:05] Speaker A: A lot of work cut out for him because, well, I wish him the best. [00:31:09] Speaker C: Yeah, he's saying a lot of things. [00:31:11] Speaker A: I wish him the best because he's wanting to see those things. [00:31:15] Speaker D: He's a former banker. So I guess he has an understanding of what it takes to do that. [00:31:23] Speaker B: On another note, I think agency, an agency system can be able to agency. [00:31:29] Speaker D: Bank get it right fulfilled, something like this. Yes, it can. [00:31:33] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. Because it's that console. [00:31:35] Speaker D: This basically what they are doing for the levies is actually agency taxation because they have individuals go like the last time we had the market. So someone just came and dropped a receipt for one of the women and then he took money from her. So that receipt is proof that she has paid whatever it is that she has to pay. And then these are not like, it's not like they have to go to an office, someone comes there to meet them. So people are obviously employed to do all of that. [00:32:01] Speaker B: So, yes, just for it to be properly accounted for, that could work. Yeah, just instance and it can still be digital. [00:32:07] Speaker A: Exactly. [00:32:08] Speaker D: I am so obviously it was in something like that where with USSD, if you pay your 50 naira or. Okay, no, I think just 200 naira for your KK every day. They just do like dial the USSD code so it sends a message here. I don't know how it works then, but every time I was in a KK and we are stopped at a certain location, that was actually what they did. [00:32:31] Speaker A: That was interesting. [00:32:33] Speaker D: Yeah, well, at least until last year when I, when I was exploded. [00:32:38] Speaker A: How that works? [00:32:39] Speaker D: Well, I don't know. You have to talk to those guys to like find out how they are doing it. Because the moment you give them cash and then they like use a USSD code or something like that to alert you. So you, I think you get, you get a message on your phone to show that, okay, you've paid amount so. [00:32:56] Speaker A: Nobody'S dragging your mirror. [00:32:59] Speaker D: So when you get to the next place, if they ask you, you tell them your number and then they do whatever it is they do and then they say, okay, yeah, these guys are paid and then they move on. [00:33:08] Speaker B: Those ones can be easily accounted for. [00:33:11] Speaker A: Exactly. And that way you're also generating data that the government can use. It's tech that can solve this problem. [00:33:17] Speaker C: Yeah. It's, I think for you to track drivers that pay their dues regularly. Right. You can use that to generate credit report on these drivers because salary workers, all these lending companies that get most. [00:33:30] Speaker A: Exactly. [00:33:31] Speaker C: But all these artisans, how do you define if they are credit worthy? [00:33:34] Speaker B: How do you. [00:33:35] Speaker C: Right, yes. Yeah. Interesting stuff. [00:33:39] Speaker A: We need to explore how tech can solve this problem. Definitely, definitely. Okay, final story, set of stories for the day. Some startups, as usual, there's always funding news. [00:33:48] Speaker D: Yeah. So we have two startups. I'll start with like what I think is the more interesting 10 p. So zero p is like a POS aggregator. So they have about 15,000 merchants. But first they raised. Yeah, so they raised $11.4 million for their series A. So it's not just the Nigerian. I'm still struggling to like say who they are. They are not exactly nigerian, they're not exactly african because they are founded by nigerian and they started out in Finland. But basically what they do is just what someone like Tim apt does. They provide pos for merchants. But what's interesting about their own solution is, is offline. So you don't need the Internet to be able to use their Pos. So they claim that with their solution. [00:34:38] Speaker A: So how does it connect? Is it NFC? I don't, I'm trying to get. [00:34:41] Speaker D: Yeah, it's a mobile app. Yeah, it's a mobile app and I think it works with what is. I think. And this is Internet free tech or something like that according to them is patented. So it's not like it could work without the Internet. And they claim that, which they could have as high as a 95% transaction success rate, which. [00:35:04] Speaker A: Because that's a major problem with Pos. Yes, with pos, even though they connect via GPR's or edge, which is supposed to be like. [00:35:13] Speaker C: Yeah, widespread. [00:35:15] Speaker A: Yeah. There's still a lot of failure. Failure. So they are trying to solve that problem. [00:35:20] Speaker D: Yeah. So just claim that they have. So they're saying that every other person on the market has like a transaction success rate of 50%, whereas with their solution they have as much as 95. [00:35:32] Speaker A: This solution has been deployed? [00:35:34] Speaker D: Yes, it has been deployed already, but. [00:35:36] Speaker A: I've never seen it anyway. [00:35:37] Speaker D: Yes. So they have only 15,000 merchants in Nigeria. In Nigeria, yeah. So if you're comparing these guys like UPI, I think UPI has over 200,000. [00:35:46] Speaker A: Did they explain the technology behind how it is offline? Because they won't be the first to try that. So for example, uh, you guys remember pay attitude, which I don't know why it did not. Yeah. Like blow in Nigeria parlance, because it was a very, very noble idea. Um, so they're using NFC. So once you get the pair to the account, you just stick their receptor whatever to your phone and then any cash points where PRT is allowed, you just accept, you just touch it's. And because it's NFC is not. It's not. So he stores the data on that. They are NFC cheap or receiver and then at the end of the day, they can now upload for settlement and all of that. So they won't be the first. But I'm just trying to understand the technology behind this. You didn't check that out? [00:36:35] Speaker D: They didn't. They didn't actually explain so much about it. They didn't really explain, although I guess I can't say. But they've been around for like three month. Sorry. Three years and. [00:36:46] Speaker A: Three years, yes. [00:36:48] Speaker D: And they have just 15,000. [00:36:49] Speaker A: I never heard of them. 50,000? Like, no, we need to look into this. [00:36:53] Speaker D: It's very little. But Europe is another thing is they are trying to, like, get into adjacent markets. So they are saying, okay, what can we do beyond payments and deposits? So they are exploring huge enough to. [00:37:12] Speaker A: Just focus exactly, exactly on if you can solve the problem. Yeah, you get distracted, like, seriously. [00:37:22] Speaker D: So they're trying to make look for other services, and what they are starting out with is bookkeeping for these merchants data. Yeah. So I guess the player is just the data because they already have 15,000 people and I think they've already deployed it. So they are saying that they've moved their users from paper based accounting to in app sales accounting. So those guys can now access every single thing, every record that they need on the app. [00:37:50] Speaker A: I'm more interested in this. Their offline pos that one is just. Yeah, I mean, yeah, you have to have add on services, but this POS thing that they claim they've been enough for three years. Yes, offline pos 90 what percent success rate? 5%, 95% success rates. [00:38:05] Speaker D: Yeah. [00:38:06] Speaker A: And just 15,000. [00:38:07] Speaker D: So here's the problem. The first race is 600k, um, seed round, I think around 2012 or so. But it took them. Was it 2012 or 2014? But it, it still took them about five years to launch in Nigeria. [00:38:22] Speaker A: They will. [00:38:22] Speaker D: So why did they take that launch? The idea was, you raise this money and we launch in Nigeria. It took them under five years to launch in Nigeria. [00:38:30] Speaker C: Yeah. They have to make it work. Now. Nigeria has not been so. [00:38:32] Speaker D: So five years. [00:38:34] Speaker C: Five years to make it work. Well, to launch. I I. Yeah, I mean, if it's. [00:38:40] Speaker A: Something that is really groundbreaking, I can understand that, but I just, I'm just. I just want to understand the technology behind it. Yeah, that's what I want to understand. [00:38:48] Speaker D: You'd have to, like, find. [00:38:50] Speaker C: Would they want to keep the trade secret or something? [00:38:53] Speaker A: No, I mean, they don't need to review, like, the specifics, but at least tell us how it works. Is it, is it nfc based? Like peer to tutors and then you connect. [00:39:04] Speaker B: There are agents. [00:39:09] Speaker A: Does it work with all cards? Is it a special payment method like pay attitude? Again, you have to stick the thing to your phone or like. Because if he's working with cars then he needs to connect to nibs. So how is he working offline? So that might explain why they don't have like a large number of merchants, a large network. Because I don't assume that it works with debit cards because then you need to connect to nibs. [00:39:32] Speaker D: Okay, so you say it works is different. [00:39:35] Speaker A: Sorry, I think I'm mixing it up right. [00:39:38] Speaker C: No, no, it's nibs. [00:39:39] Speaker A: Nibs also transfer. [00:39:41] Speaker C: Anyway, it controls everything. [00:39:43] Speaker A: Everything? Yeah. [00:39:43] Speaker D: Okay, say mobile platform for small businesses to accept card payments via a mobile app and EMV certified card reader. [00:39:53] Speaker A: EMV satisfied. And it is offline. [00:39:59] Speaker C: Yeah. All those carriers that look like calculators. [00:40:02] Speaker A: Yeah. Those moons that paper used to use. But yeah, this ones are still online based. Okay, we need to look into that. I don't want to say things, I'm not sure, but I'm really interested in the technology of it. And now they're able to guarantee 90%, over 90% success rates and they've not grown anyway. [00:40:30] Speaker B: They have carried themselves outside. [00:40:37] Speaker A: This is the first one they're probably announcing. [00:40:39] Speaker D: They actually announced the last one, I think six hundred k. Oh, I see. They actually announced. The other startup is smartwatch, a south african HR tech startup. I don't know if that's. It is correct. But they also raised $200 million. Sorry, $2 million in, okay, million dollars in seed funding. So what they are doing is using WhatsApp to help companies do all of their HR needs. [00:41:11] Speaker A: So interesting. [00:41:14] Speaker D: Yeah, it's interesting but I don't know, I'm being cynical about it. Anyway, there are place that the frontline employees, people like cashiers, restaurant workers, these guys who they don't have access to emails or maybe they don't have an email, but when companies employ them, they are still your staff. But you also have like HR needs that you need to satisfy because of them. So without email, how else? So the idea is, okay, fine, these guys use WhatsApp. So it's based in South Africa and I think South Africans have like a higher mobile penetration than most african countries. And I think decide over 90% of the country uses WhatsApp. So they are like, okay, fine, let's use WhatsApp since that's what everybody uses. So it looks like it's a WhatsApp bottom that every once you log in. [00:42:06] Speaker B: You raise 2 million. [00:42:08] Speaker A: That's an interesting model to raise money on because depending on WhatsApp API, I. [00:42:16] Speaker D: Guess, but they also have, like, adjacent services as well. So they are doing what everybody is doing now, which I think is the most interesting part of the whole story. They also doing pay on demand or. Demand. Yeah, pay on demand. So you get your salaries after a certain period or a portion of your salary after a certain period. But now the other people who have launched Cardano, Nepay and the likes, they have always been focused on, like, regular employees, formal employees like us. But you see these other guys, your security guy, your mega wow, interesting. [00:42:56] Speaker B: That's Iris. [00:42:57] Speaker D: That's good. They are focused on. Right. [00:42:59] Speaker B: Contract staff. [00:43:00] Speaker D: Yeah. People are very, very high risk. [00:43:02] Speaker B: High risk. [00:43:03] Speaker A: How do you, how do you guarantee longevity? Because these people are usually not. [00:43:13] Speaker C: They can wake up more money and say they don't. [00:43:15] Speaker B: They probably don't have a contract. [00:43:18] Speaker A: They don't have a contract. So they can be fired. [00:43:19] Speaker B: Exactly. They don't have benefits. Nothing. They are not covered. [00:43:24] Speaker A: I'm sorry, but it is. People raise money for these days. Which country do you say based again? [00:43:30] Speaker D: South Africa. [00:43:31] Speaker A: South Africa, yes. [00:43:37] Speaker B: We just need to know what was going on in the investors. There's something they would have seen. [00:43:42] Speaker D: So, you know, Bento had, I don't know if they've released that feature. So everyone was talking about it after the whole saga. He was like, he's so sorry that it overshadowed what they had planned. So the idea was also to have something that serves the informal sector because every solution is like, focused on the formal sector because that's the safe space. Yeah, that's a safe space. [00:44:07] Speaker B: You can't owe the employee. You can owe the employer. [00:44:09] Speaker A: Exactly. [00:44:10] Speaker B: So they don't even have a contract. [00:44:12] Speaker D: Well, okay. Well, that could also mean that employees or employers now have to formalize the way things work. [00:44:20] Speaker A: What would they. [00:44:22] Speaker B: These people are very, they don't need a skill to do those, to perform those rules, you know. Right. [00:44:27] Speaker D: Technically, they need a skill. [00:44:28] Speaker B: What is this skill? [00:44:30] Speaker C: What does it. Okay, let's, let's. What special skill does a security, a typical security guard have? [00:44:36] Speaker D: Can you do, can you do their job? [00:44:37] Speaker C: I just can't. [00:44:38] Speaker B: Anybody can. [00:44:39] Speaker D: Yeah, anybody. [00:44:40] Speaker B: I guess that's like, anybody can. So they can quickly dispose of them. [00:44:45] Speaker D: Yeah. [00:44:46] Speaker C: Let me clarify. There are some people that actually trained security personnel. [00:44:52] Speaker B: Security firms. [00:44:52] Speaker A: Yes. They are different from those people you're talking about. [00:44:59] Speaker D: I guess the thing is, the idea is just, it's not like you get all of your salary. So a lot of people are doing 30%, 33%. So you don't get above that. So if I'm only giving you a portion of your salary, and it's usually after you've worked for a certain period, maybe like maybe two weeks. So the reason is obvious. In Africa you don't get your salary until the end of the month, but in some parts of the world you can get it in two weeks or something. [00:45:25] Speaker A: Or daily pay, or daily pay depends on the kind of daily wage. [00:45:29] Speaker D: Yeah. So another thing now that is also that we also need to consider is that most of these guys, some of them get like maybe daily pay or so some of them get that. Not all, but some of them do too. In that kind of situation, it means that the employer has to ensure that I have structures that set down that. Okay, everything works like this. Because you know that if this guy takes 33% of his salary after maybe working for two weeks and some is. [00:45:58] Speaker B: Behaving, you can't even fire him. [00:46:00] Speaker D: Yeah, you can, but. [00:46:02] Speaker B: Okay, I think we should add at this point that we are not saying products should not be built for the informal sector. We are not saying that. We are not discriminating people that are informal sector. They deserve good things too. They deserve to be to get loans. They deserve amenities that. But you are just saying from the business perspective, like, how risky is it for these people? I want to say that I think this, um, startup will actually focus on the employer more than the employee. [00:46:30] Speaker D: Yes, yes, it's right. It's b, two b. [00:46:32] Speaker B: So, so I think it is not like a direct. [00:46:36] Speaker D: So I've never seen anybody, even in the formal sector, if you do it directly, what guarantee do you have that the employee will not take? [00:46:45] Speaker A: Exactly. Let me tell you, all the company, I don't want to mention news, but all the, let me mention names. For example, Bento rights that had that feature for formal employees. It's kind of has been disabled, sort of. [00:46:59] Speaker B: I'm still getting notification. Yeah. [00:47:02] Speaker A: But it has been converted to like a loan of sorts, with very ridiculous rates. [00:47:08] Speaker B: Hmm. [00:47:09] Speaker A: Because they must have found out over the course of months that this thing is not that viable. They probably lost a lot of money. Money. [00:47:18] Speaker D: Because I think, because don't forget, it's. [00:47:19] Speaker A: Not, they're not taking it from the company's post the way they did it. They took it from their post and they charge you like just a 5% salary comes in. So what if you got sucked in. [00:47:32] Speaker B: Between and you did not inform them? [00:47:34] Speaker A: Exactly. So next thing, they now change it and you now find out that the rates were ridiculous and they tried and piled on other things on top of. [00:47:40] Speaker B: It and then just pay insurance and the money you have not collected. [00:47:44] Speaker A: So it's going to be more difficult in the informal sector. [00:47:47] Speaker D: Yeah. [00:47:48] Speaker A: And then you have risked $2 million for this. I mean, you figure it out. [00:47:56] Speaker D: You might have to focus on this. [00:47:58] Speaker C: You might not be looking. Maybe the informal sector is probably different in South Africa. [00:48:04] Speaker A: Again. Yeah. [00:48:05] Speaker C: Maybe it's not as unstructured and willabalu like Nigeria. [00:48:09] Speaker D: I think it is. So from what I've heard so many South Africans say, I think what they will focus more on is their WhatsApp service, because everybody keeps on saying that South Africa has like a high mobile phone penetration rates compared to other countries. So. And most people use what you call it, most people use WhatsApp. I guess that's what they will focus on. Because while this won't be ruled out in physics to like, test it, because they need to be sure that, okay, this works under the risk awarded because b, two c lending is even for the formal sector. It's crazy. [00:48:53] Speaker B: So money for it. [00:48:56] Speaker A: Exactly. So, so much pressure. [00:48:57] Speaker B: Yes. [00:48:58] Speaker A: Like you said, Nfemi, we're not trying to bash them or we're just doing a job asking questions. Ask questions. So, I mean, ideally we should try and feature these people and these startups and get answers to these questions. I'm sure that in raising the money, they actually had questions like, and they answered them satisfactorily. [00:49:18] Speaker B: That's why they give them the money. [00:49:20] Speaker D: Because according to one of the investors, the team at Smartwatch are innovators. They are building more than just an end wage access product and have recognized that in order to make a tangible impact on employers, they need to build a powerful way for employers to engage with their workforce. So the way I interpret this is, this is like just a subset of what they plan to build. [00:49:44] Speaker B: It's seed funding is the WhatsApp thing they sold. [00:49:47] Speaker D: Yes. This is just like. So if you, if you see what happened with YC, um, from, from Africa or from Nigeria, most of the people who got in were fintech. Now, even the, some other people who got in there were not fintech. See, I had like a fintech layer. So someone like reliance held is health tech. It has a fintech layer to their products. So I guess, um, the trick here. [00:50:12] Speaker A: Is just have some fintech. [00:50:13] Speaker D: Yeah, throw some fintech, a pinch of. [00:50:17] Speaker B: Fintech and get the money. Because we have money problem. [00:50:22] Speaker D: Of course. I mean, finance is still there and it's still an issue. So if you, which I don't think. [00:50:27] Speaker B: We get stopped anytime soon. [00:50:29] Speaker C: Okay. But I'm not surprised they raised the amount of money because even though with the looming questions we have. [00:50:40] Speaker A: Okay. [00:50:41] Speaker D: And that explains a lot. [00:50:42] Speaker A: That's racist. [00:50:46] Speaker D: Another question I was also asking is how is employment rates in Africa increasing? Because I'm looking at it from the general. Okay, HR tech guys are raising some money, maybe not a lot, but Kazna has raised money for something similar. NEP has raised money for something similar. Now these guys all this year, and. [00:51:09] Speaker B: They'Re not saying they're helping you to hire now, is it people that you have, that you are catering for? [00:51:14] Speaker D: Yes. My problem is employment. South Africa, for example, has a ridiculously high unemployment rate. [00:51:21] Speaker B: Even Nigeria. [00:51:22] Speaker D: Nigeria too. Ghana too. So who the hell are you serving? [00:51:25] Speaker B: You are serving the people that you have hired, the people that have company, even if they used to be 50 and you fire 30. [00:51:34] Speaker D: But you have so many people. Maybe not so many, but you have more people raising money in a sector for, for a continent that they are not exactly creating so many more. [00:51:45] Speaker A: So it's probably a bubble for now is what you're saying. [00:51:47] Speaker C: Like, I don't, I don't think it's a bubble. I think they are raising money for the future. Right? They are seeing an age and a day, an age where Africa employment rate starts rising rapidly. [00:52:00] Speaker D: The startups actually raise for future. They build for the future, not raise for the future. [00:52:05] Speaker C: What? [00:52:05] Speaker D: Because within a year these guys will want to raise more money. Within a year or two years they. [00:52:09] Speaker A: Will run out of money because you're going to spend a lot of money. [00:52:12] Speaker D: To power this and our implementary to. [00:52:16] Speaker A: Increase because you can't, you can't change. If government does not solve the unemployment issue, you can't innovate your way out of some of those. [00:52:26] Speaker C: They may not be raising, but since they are building for the future, they are raising to build for the future. So, so yeah, if the government has a lot of, um, they have a lot of work to do. Right. But most of these startups, they are just, if you look at what most of them are doing, you know that there's, there are a lot of things that we can't wait for government to come and do. Honestly. [00:52:52] Speaker A: Yeah. It's an indictment on government. Like the failure of government in Africa. Yes, because some of these things are like. [00:53:00] Speaker B: And if problem persists, solutions keep coming up. I think we should link to one article I did following following up tech point. Build 2020, building for the african market. Oh yeah, we have pitch. We have the pitch because we have problems. There will always be the pitch. And yes, we can, we can tell them there's a problem and they can see the problem. So they will always give fund to solve this problem, either future or present. Either there's a problem, but there's always a problem, and that's the african market for you. [00:53:36] Speaker C: Yeah. So as long as the problem to be solved, people will keep raising money. [00:53:39] Speaker B: Exactly. [00:53:40] Speaker C: I'm sure as at the time when Shola just tested that feature, I'm not sure. I'm sure there would have been a lot of problems would have seen like, oh, does it make sense to build something like this? In Nigeria at that time, the payment space was not as developed as it is now. So building something like that at that time, I'm pretty sure he must have met people who said, this doesn't make sense for this kind of market. [00:54:00] Speaker A: Exactly, exactly. [00:54:01] Speaker D: You're right. I still do not buy that because it's kind of similar to the people who are building the climate tech space. I kind of think it's just playing to the gallery for me. [00:54:14] Speaker B: I mean, you can look for a defense for fintech. [00:54:18] Speaker A: A very good example was agro crowdfunding. So many of them popped up, raised money then, right? But now it's clear that they could not. [00:54:27] Speaker D: Okay, fine. Look at, look at the kenyan startups raising money for electric vehicles. It's impressive, right? You're raising money to build electric vehicles. That maybe people would have been like, Africans don't do deep tech and all of that. But you realize that you're not solving the problem in your. How does an electric bus solve legal transportation issues? [00:54:48] Speaker B: For example, reduce emission even while you stuck in traffic. [00:54:55] Speaker D: Emission is like, if we had hundred problems in Africa, emission wouldn't even make it into the first 70. We have problems in Lagos. [00:55:06] Speaker A: You guys remember the climate, what would I call it? The climate summit that was held in Scotland last year, where all the big major countries around the world came together and they all talk about climate change and how they're targeting China. And some other people are telling China that you guys need to reduce your emissions. And they said, look at you people. The same thing that got you out of poverty is what we have pursuing now. Until we are out of poverty, we. [00:55:34] Speaker D: Are not reducing anything. [00:55:36] Speaker A: This same coal and petrol and everything that you are telling us that we reduce emissions is what got you out of poverty. Until we get everybody out of poverty, we are not ready to talk about anything. Climate change or dropping emission? Yeah, that's what China said. [00:55:49] Speaker D: I mean, it's. If you want to raise money, it's nice if you want to raise money, but really, what does really? I think I've been having these thoughts, like, if you're building in Africa, please be solving problems. Don't duplicate solutions that someone else is solving perfectly. Don't build the next flutter wave. [00:56:09] Speaker B: Don't build the next. [00:56:13] Speaker D: Because they will acquire you in two years time, and they will acquire you for peanuts, which might maybe settle you for life, but may if. Okay, so let me not cast your hustle, but if that's what you do, make sure you don't come and tell us you're innovating, because you're not innovating nothing. Because it's something that a lot of people. You have, like, a hundred plus in Nigeria. [00:56:37] Speaker A: Okay, we have to stop now. Time is fast paced. We spent almost an hour, almost an hour with this. Wow. Okay. We'd like to hear your thoughts. We really want to hear your thoughts on everything we talked about today. The floater wave issue, flutterweed versus Clara. What do you think? Mtn shouldering most of our. A huge chunk of our tax revenue in the country. And then these startups we talked about trying to solve innovate their way out of Africa's problems. We'd like to hear your thoughts. You can email us at podcastechpoint Africa. You can also tweet at us or just tweet your thoughts and use the hashtag hash Techpoint Africa podcast. And if you're listening for the first time, you can get the podcast anywhere. [00:57:21] Speaker C: You get podcasts, Google podcast, podcast, teacher, Spotify, I heart radio. And anywhere else you get your podcast, you'll find us there. [00:57:28] Speaker A: Yeah. So if you stayed this long, thank you very much. [00:57:31] Speaker B: In fact. [00:57:31] Speaker A: Yeah, real fun. But if you did it, we understand, and, yeah. All right, so we'll catch you guys, you guys again next time. Catch you on Thursday. Have a very good week. Bye.