Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: 500 gimmick.
[00:00:13] Speaker B: Inflation.
Just a word. But like yeast, it makes everything rise.
Rise so high even our savings can bite. From food to transportation to clothing to even rent, the recent basic income barely feels like it came.
Our hard earned money failing to dance to the rhythm of inflation. We barely get through today, only to worry about tomorrow. Yet tomorrow carries so much hope on its shoulders. Hope amidst the fear of how it will turn out. But despite. Despite the gloom, there is good news. We found the best way to save. With Jolof plus interest so high, 21% net, even inflation stands no chance. So today we breathe and choose to secure tomorrow.
Today we save to beat inflation tomorrow with Jamaic plus.
Download the Jolof plus app on the Google Play Store or Apple Store and earn up to 21% net on your savings.
[00:01:24] Speaker C: Hey, everyone, it's oduanife, your regular host on tech Point Africa podcast.
You guys didn't see me last week. I heard that you didn't miss me. No offense, taking with me in the studio today. You've already heard his voice. His team goes dream. He's probably on having a beef against me. Me. I don't know why.
[00:01:44] Speaker A: Because don't have money. Why would I be having beef?
[00:01:47] Speaker C: Jeez. Jeez.
[00:01:49] Speaker A: Only beef rich people.
[00:01:51] Speaker C: Sorry, this is on public. Oh, lord.
[00:01:55] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. So that they know I only beef beef rich people.
[00:01:58] Speaker C: Well, I'm. I'm a rich anti. In my. In my own. How did they say it?
[00:02:03] Speaker A: Your own right?
[00:02:04] Speaker C: Yes, in my own right.
[00:02:05] Speaker A: You get out of my bubble sometimes.
[00:02:07] Speaker C: No, it's not my bubble. I've been told by the people I'm reaching for. So on that you're gonna forgive my voice today is. I don't know why my voice will be taken in sabbatical when I'm not so. But pardon me, and I hope is soft enough. But don't sleep. This is the kind of voice needed in those monologue podcasts. And they will just go, I said.
[00:02:37] Speaker A: We plan on sleeping.
[00:02:39] Speaker C: Hello, listeners. There's one I do listen to that goes like that. Oh, sorry. I digress. Today we are considering some tech news that happened during the week. A lot happened or decided to focus on two, as we've, as it has become the usual on our weekly episode of the Tech Points Africa podcast. Today I'm starting on what I consider a sad note. Maybe for me, or I'm just overreacting, or maybe the thing happening to my voice that's affecting my emotions. One of the two, but Binance executive that has been detained for tax evasion and money laundering since March 2024 is still in custody. The last we heard about him this week was his lawyers asking that they release him to do surgery because his health is deteriorating and that is what they are still trying to get him out for. It is not even for that purpose. Like, let's have some hearings. Like, I know court cases take a lot of time, but I'm not even sure if he's the one that has been accused on discount or the company represents that is binance. And meanwhile, since that much, Binance has stopped naira transactions on the exchange. So he's going to give us like a rundown of the timeline of things since March, since this guy has been detained. He's a us citizen and I would have imagined that his state would have probably intervened or something.
Um, the fact that earth is deteriorating is also something of concern, but yes.
Can you give us like a rundown of what has happened so far? Why is this detention prolonged? Like, it could have just been sentenced or something? I don't know. And, okay, we're not going to talk about the conspiracy theories around it yet, but, yeah, go on.
[00:04:51] Speaker A: I was not aware there were conspiracy theories.
[00:04:53] Speaker C: They were. They were.
[00:04:55] Speaker A: What are they?
[00:04:56] Speaker C: Yeah, there's this one that is being elder transform to provide the details of some people that are considered enemy of the state in Nigeria.
Yeah, to get their identity and their location, you get. But it's a conspiracy theory, so unproven. So can we go back to where we were?
[00:05:20] Speaker A: Yes. Okay, so, I mean, you've already given the rundown. So he was initially detained, so by now was accused of money laundering, tax evasion, and two executives flew into Nigeria to dialogue with the government and get a resolution for money.
[00:05:43] Speaker C: Escaped.
[00:05:44] Speaker A: Yeah, one escaped. A very, very interesting ton of events, unescape to real life. Prison break happened under the. Under the eyes. And yeah, if you're saying conspiracy theories, or if you're speaking about conspiracy theories, they probably are keeping him there to punish the other. Like, he's basically, in my opinion, his part of his suffering is also due to the fact that they let one of let the other guys sleep and it feels like they're just taking it out on him. But I think this is a sad state of events, first for him, because you came with the intention that you're going to have some dialogue with the government and potentially resolve issues your company was having. And now you are being placed under arrest, you're in detention, you can't access proper health care. Yeah, over six months. And I mean, it's funny how time flies. But it was just like yesterday that he was. He was being held. And now we are. We are hearing the nigerian government is saying, okay, you guys are making a big deal out of this. It's not that big. And I don't know. Like I said, it's a very sorry state of affairs, and I do not know how.
So I think this looks very badly or it looks very bad for the nigerian government or whoever is holding him in this case.
Yeah, EFCC, the NSC, all of them. It looks very bad because this is not the. This is really not the time for you to be flexing your muscle with a company that could. With a foreign company, for a number of reasons.
Your country isn't particularly in its best shape economically. And you claim you are trying to attract foreign investments. And someone who came into dialogue with you has been held without. I mean, you could call it Trump top charges, to be fair, right.
He has been held for months, and very little progress has been made about getting him out of the. Getting him out of detention.
[00:07:57] Speaker C: So even, like, granting bail for medical reasons is not happening.
[00:08:02] Speaker A: So I'm looking at it, and I'm an investor, or I'm considering Nigeria as a potential investment destination. Now I have to make a decision, a few decisions. Do I go ahead with investing in your country, knowing fully well that this is a fate that I could face further down the line, or do I.
Do I just take my things and leave regardless of what happens?
I think that's a question that a lot of Nigerians or a lot of foreign investors right now would be thinking, is it worth it to continue investing in Nigeria?
[00:08:42] Speaker C: Here we were, I think, two weeks ago when we were talking about when Starlink and other is building ground stations in Nigeria, starting with some southwestern states. And that means if we have executives on ground, even if they are locals, it's given, like, when we have leverage on you, there's nothing we can't do about you or against you. As long as you remember the time when Twitter wanted to have an office in Africa and he said it was going to be in Lagos, and then the twitter, the twitter, what's it called? Ban thing happened. I can just imagine if they had an office in Nigeria that year, what would have happened? Probably closed down or EFCC just running down the location. And it doesn't look nice on the nigerian government, to be fair. And at least there should be a progress on the hearing. Since this is considered, like an economic and Financial Crimes Commission purview, there should be an hearing, a hearing, rather. We should have like courts. We should have like, an idea of how the court sessions are going.
[00:10:06] Speaker A: We could have an idea.
Yeah, he's been going to, he's been, he's been going to court, but the issue is.
So his, his lawyers are trying to get him out first to, to access adequate healthcare. And the video that came out this week is really sad. Right. So let's assume his company is actually guilty of what you accuse them of. Right. You should accord him that respect and just let him be able to not, I mean, don't dehumanize the person. It's something that law enforcement in Nigeria does a lot. Right. He was obviously in pain and he needed aid and you did. You couldn't provide a future. I mean, what does it take to make his living conditions a little bit more variable? So, yes, he has a condition that has been, I mean, it's a long standing condition, so it's not something new that you could say, um, developed in detention. But how about you make his life a little bit easier or easier. Yeah, exactly. Isn't a criminal so creamy treating him like a criminal? And yes, it didn't. Even criminals have rights. You shouldn't.
He's been treated very poorly. And this is just, again, at the risk of, um, sounding like a broken record, it's just, it's just very terrible for the, it's a terrible look for the government. It's a terrible look for Nigeria as an investment destination because I'm thinking right now, do I want to invest and go through all of this? And even if is it in Nigeria who is going through all of this? Do you want spending all your time as a company trying to get an employee out? I mean, your business is hard enough as it is now you have to fight to get an employee out of detention mix. Absolutely.
[00:12:03] Speaker C: I think this has like, human reciprocations.
[00:12:07] Speaker A: Yeah, of course.
[00:12:08] Speaker C: Like, I feel to some extent, I feel like it's not getting the. Enough attention as it should get. I mean, it's the same country that you can't even hold, what's it called?
People in positions.
You can't hold them accountable for how they spent public funds. Still the same climb. Those that make it to detention are released or they're giving like, different treatments from other people that are in detention. It is still the same claim that people get away with misappropriation of funds and all this tax invasion for the companies they run and everything. And it is the same country, you know, if it were a country that, you know, like the rule of law is like very much upheld. We would say, okay, they're trying to follow due process and all. I think there are still a lot of conspiracy theories around this or things that are not getting out that fortunately.
[00:13:21] Speaker A: Our job is not to do conspiracy theories. But it's still the same issue, right?
Six months, I think, is enough time for you to expedite a process. Yeah, it's more than enough time. So if you do not have anything on the guy after six months, yeah, maybe let him leave because six months is enough time.
[00:13:44] Speaker C: I think at least bill doesn't mean that it's off the charges or they can't be court cases again. Grant him bill. Like, of course he will travel out. He will leave the country.
[00:13:58] Speaker A: But yeah, no, like, you can, you can grant bill and then the person doesn't have to leave the country.
[00:14:04] Speaker C: The one that escaped from custody, what did I expect?
[00:14:07] Speaker A: Or the one that, I have nothing to say on that. But he did not escape. It was released, like I said.
[00:14:15] Speaker C: Anyways, we just thought to discuss this because it is taking longer than it should. And whether we like it or not, when binance is mentioned or when the crypto space in Nigeria is mentioned, and in many african countries, you can't remove binance from it even though there are local crypto platforms, exchanges. Meanwhile, sometimes last week, two crypto exchanges were granted license in Nigeria. I was not optimistic about it, but it seems like good news. So if that means anything, it means that it should mean that the government is, is more open to.
[00:14:58] Speaker A: Government doesn't know what they are doing. So SEc is saying, you guys, you guys have a license. I think there are three now or four companies have the license.
Yeah, I think I've seen two others. Also, SEC is saying you have a license. The CBN is keeping silent. Banks are saying CBN hasn't told us anything. And so anti CBN speaks to us. We can't do business with you. So what's the use of your license? Really?
[00:15:23] Speaker C: Well, we'll get there. We'll get there. Our insight for this week is Binance user growth since 2017. Binance tripled its annual user base between 2021 and 2022. It experienced a spike from 28.6 million users in 2021 to 128 million users in 2022 and 150 million users in 2023. To get more insights like this, go to Intelpoint Co. And that's that. About Binance. We're moving from there to zambian, zambian startup, sometimes the 2022 union 54 seized its card issuing services and it affects a number of african startups. Right. And almost a year after the founders started something else totally different from that, but it's still with help from Microsoft. Did I say Microsoft? Mastercard, rather. Sorry, Mastercard. And the name of this, what came out from that? It was chitchat. Chit chat is considered like a more of a messaging platform, but which is also as a social commerce platform that will aid connection with merchant vendors where you can pay, message them and do all sorts. So why are we talking about it? About one year later, again, a new service is being introduced to chit chat, and that is virtual cart.
Well, institutions like this, the questions people tend to ask, or people would, that would normally come to people's mind, is, okay, you did this, you failed.
Now you're ahead of offering a service that has similarities with what field, what lessons are you picking from the one that failed and you're applying here? So the question I will start with is what lessons are brought in from Union 54?
[00:17:30] Speaker A: I hope it's not what you're asking.
[00:17:31] Speaker C: I'm asking you, Tim Gozer.
[00:17:33] Speaker A: I mean, it can't be me. I'm not the understanding company.
[00:17:35] Speaker C: I know, I know, but it's out there. You know, when people talk about their success and failure stories or postmortems, they talk about, if you remember, you didn't do any postmortem. Now they just came up and say beside something else, so you didn't get more time.
[00:17:50] Speaker A: So that, first of all, this is not even a, I don't know why they're calling the social comments app really, because it's looking more like a super app. So when they launched, it was just called a social commerce app. So I don't know, features that it's.
[00:18:05] Speaker C: Not them that would tell the consumers what to.
[00:18:10] Speaker A: There are features you have. So one, there's a chart you can send money, like to other chitchat users, and there's a remittance feature, so you could send money to a couple of african countries, I think. Then you also have a, what do you call it now? Virtual cards, which they just launched, but they have the commerce feature, which I guess, which is why they're calling in social commerce, where you can.
So first you can create digital storefronts as a business owner, and then you can list your inventory. So I guess maybe a bumper within this.
So, I mean, for those of you may not know, bumper. Bumper is basically a, is also a social commerce startup that provides tools for merchants to have. You can just get storefronts?
Yeah, you can set up a storefront, list your inventory and accept payments so what chitchat is doing is all of this. So there's a chat feature which you can send money to users on the app just via chat. And then with the storefront feature as well, you can do something similar. So if I may, let's say small shop owner, then I can just create a shop or create a store, a digital storefront, and you can see everything there. So you can now just like you.
[00:19:35] Speaker C: Do with what's our business?
[00:19:37] Speaker A: Exactly. What's our business.
Yeah, yeah. So my, that said, that's why I said, I don't know why you're calling this social commerce app, because it's a lot more than social commerce. There's remittance, there's payments, there's messaging. So I think they are looking at becoming a super app. But anyway, let's go with the name that they are going.
[00:20:03] Speaker C: Yes, probably along the side of WeChat.
[00:20:06] Speaker A: Yeah. So did you see out on whether Africa can have a super app?
Well, some people claim Opa did not want to be a super app and that they wanted, everything they did was geared towards being a fintech.
Different discussion, but like I said, jury see out on whether we can have a super app. Safe border has tried it. I think Gozem has tried to be a super app in Africa. In Africa. And everyone who has the poster child.
[00:20:38] Speaker C: For super app in Africa, Gozem.
[00:20:40] Speaker A: Yeah. So everyone who has tried it has not exactly had these guys much success.
[00:20:47] Speaker C: I featured them. Not Central Africa.
Yeah, no, that, I mean, they're in Central Africa. I remember featuring the startup, I think in 2020 or 2021, shut down in 2022 or thereabouts. Yes.
Was their mentor.
[00:21:12] Speaker A: So, I mean, did you result on whether that can happen? And I suppose they know this because you need to. So, like I already mentioned at least three distinct features. There's irremittance, there's payments, and then they start. Now you have to dislodge, I think I was having this discussion just last week. If you want to succeed, you need to dislodge WhatsApp. You need to dislodge existing payment platforms in the country.
They are starting out in Uganda, sorry. In Zambia, where they have like the 54, I don't know. So they are supposed to expand to closer country. I think there's Uganda, but you're starting out in Zambia where there are definitely, at least there are banks, there are a few small fintechs that are there. So first, if you're going to even have a chance at success in these countries, you need to change people's behaviors make them realize that, or decide that WhatsApp isn't it for them, that their bank app would not cut it, or that the fintechs or mobile money platforms that they currently use wouldn't cut it for them. So I don't know how much like off the top of my head, I can't remember how much Zambia gets in remittance. So I don't know how much remittance can drive that. You could say remittance would be maybe an entry point that makes them. So if I use you to send and receive money from outside the country, I might, and if I receive money frequently, then that might be something that gets very, that maybe it just drives user acquisition for them. I don't know how much Zambia receives in remittances, but it's definitely not one of the top destinations for remittances in Africa. So I don't know how much that.
[00:23:06] Speaker C: Can, that's even one of the service. And given how the business model has changed from what it was with Union 54, now it's mostly focused on customers. Right. And to do, to scale with that, to do, you have to do like volume. Volume. So the startup will have to be looking at like expansion into bigger markets, into larger markets. And if you could stay in your country, but like, yes, if you want to consolidate larger markets, you meet competitors in those markets. Right. I'm just looking at, since you said you can't speak to the lessons they probably learned from Union 54, they probably want to use in this particular one. One thing that we can try to speculate is the chances of success with this is one year running now, almost one year right now.
[00:24:04] Speaker A: And so speculating, the one thing maybe I want to talk about is so cheat chart is the founders third attempt at solving kind of related problems. So he started with Zazu, then moved to Union 54, which was providing an infrastructure for people to, for fintechs to issue cards.
[00:24:32] Speaker C: And fintechs used them then, interestingly, yeah, of course.
[00:24:37] Speaker A: I mean, yes, why not? They got into YC, but that's not.
[00:24:41] Speaker C: Even, you know, the way fintechs are with infrastructure. That has to do, do is they will, they will.
[00:24:47] Speaker A: First of all, there aren't too many people providing that service. Even, even right now, there aren't a lot of options. If you wanted to, if you want to issue cards, you don't have a lot of options right now.
[00:24:58] Speaker C: And that's the thing that.
[00:24:59] Speaker A: So why wouldn't you?
[00:25:01] Speaker C: They use, african startups mostly use like foreign.
[00:25:05] Speaker A: Nobody is going to be provide. No, no, foreign companies going to be trying to stretch themselves to give you the infrastructure structure. So, like the market they were playing in. Well, it made sense. Right. But what I'm particularly interested in is you had to shut down union 54 because you couldn't figure out how to stop chargeback fraud.
[00:25:27] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:25:28] Speaker A: And now you are launching.
Yeah, you're launching chit chat, but you're also giving out virtual cards. So my, my problem is, or my question would be, what has changed in the last one year? Um, have you somehow figured out how to reduce chargeback? Because you can't eliminate it completely, to be fair. So have you figured out a better way to do this? Now there's a, there's an argument that at the scale they're at, I was, I, their numbers are not, are not really public, but I just tried to check on, on the Play store, they have about ten k downloads. But let's just say you have maybe the same number on Apple, let's say 2030K users.
Perhaps at that scale, it's easier for you to handle chargeback fraud, but I mean, you're struggling with the, you're dealing with the smaller scale, so your problem is reduced. But what's to say that they've learned any lesson about chargeback fraud to issue virtual cards? That's, that's the question that I have for them. Right.
[00:26:37] Speaker C: So would you, would you rather they just stay away from card business?
[00:26:41] Speaker A: I'm not the one to tell them. I'm not the one to tell them whether they should offer card services or not.
It's, it's obviously a part of their product vision. But I think before doing that, they need to, they need to, they need to figure out whether they have learned enough lessons from union 54 that would translate into, into chit chat, because you would, you have the same problems, like I said, only that is on a smaller scale. So have they figured out the way to reduce incidences of chargeback fraud? Do they have better reporting mechanisms? Do they have better, like, just generally they have better mechanisms right now. I think that's, that's a question they should, they should have answers to, hopefully. And if they do, then maybe it's possible, and yeah, maybe it's possible that they succeed at this. Of course it's wanting to succeed at the virtual card business, but whether what they're trying to do succeeds or not, I think it, it's, I think it's fair to say that we've seen a number of social commerce, what I call them startups now. So social commerce in Africa has kind of grown in the last few years. If you're in Nigeria, you probably know, or are you probably know someone who is selling on Instagram or you're already selling on Instagram yourself. So social commerce has become huge. There's clearly an opportunity there to provide better, better tools or provide tools at all for. For anyone who is for social commerce. I don't know what to call them.
[00:28:23] Speaker C: Platforms.
[00:28:24] Speaker A: Yeah, there's clearly a market there, so whether they can succeed at that is an entirely different conversation at all.
[00:28:32] Speaker C: But, yeah, it's worth trying. Being a serial entrepreneur, you just don't give up like that. I guess third try is probably a charm.
[00:28:40] Speaker A: Yeah. And it's interesting, though, that they've. They've always had Mastercard as a partner.
[00:28:45] Speaker C: Exactly.
[00:28:45] Speaker A: From Zazu. Again, this is something. Nigerians they get. But, yeah. Anyway, from Zazu to union 54. And now to chit chat.
[00:28:59] Speaker C: Getting out of the card business.
[00:29:01] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:29:02] Speaker C: I guess even if this turn out to be the super app we envisage it to be, there will still be cardinal in all the mix. But let's hope the third time is a charm. And, okay, you have told me to stop saying this, but wishing.
[00:29:18] Speaker A: Yeah, please, can you not say. I mean, it's not. I mean, if you succeed, all the best. But really.
[00:29:26] Speaker C: All right, that would be all today on today's episode of Tech Point Africa podcast, catch up with every other story that happened in Africa tech on the Techpoint Africa website. Go to Techpoint Africa. You find everything that is going on in Africa tech. Don't forget to drop a feedback for us. You can comment if you're listening to us on Spotify, you can rate us. You can.
You can drop your feedback for us. And if you're listening to us on any of our other podcast platforms, you can also send us a message or reach out to us via social media platforms or send us an email at podcastechpoint Africa. We would be very happy to hear from you. This is also a good time to remind you of our other native podcasts. Other podcasts on Tech point Africa, we have the modern workplace conversations. We have equity merchants. We have how quotech works. Uh, you can also subscribe to this ones and catch an episode every week. Every week, unfailingly. Um, um, this has been going on. You can also subscribe to our newsletters, Tech Point Digest, run by Victoria, uh, darling Victoria. And then there is the modern workplace newsletter. There's equity merchant newsletter. And it's also auquotecworks newsletter. Keep up with us on. Also on our social media platform. I think I need followers on Twitter.
You can find me.
[00:31:05] Speaker A: Afraid to beg them to follow you?
[00:31:06] Speaker C: You can't find me. Okay, shameless plug. You can find me at.
Let me just spell my username at. N I f e M e. So.
[00:31:20] Speaker A: You'Re using tech points work to promote your Twitter account?
[00:31:24] Speaker C: Yes, because I do. I do take print work on my hand, so you can follow me there. Let's catch up. But also, you can find me on LinkedIn.
You can also keep up with that. Anything you miss on any of our social media platforms, you find it on my, on my page. I don't know about you guys, but that's my shameless plug for today. Thank you for joining us. I hope if. If you love the way I sound, I can keep. I can keep up with it, too. So let me know if this or that's my shouty part is the part you like, the part where they don't like anyone.
Yes. Feedback. Just tell me what you like. I'll try to fit in. Bye.
